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Where’s My Kaupthing Cash?

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The Credit Crunch Hits Corrie!

Published in Savings on 9 October 2008

If you tried to make a transfer from your Kaupthing Edge savings account this week -- and you're still missing your money -- here's what may have happened to it.

Since yesterday’s take-over of Kaupthing Edge’s savings accounts by ING Direct UK, there’s been a flurry of very worried activity in the comments space below the article I wrote reporting the move.

We’ve even had phone calls to our office. Many Fools are very concerned that CHAPS transfers made from their Kaupthing Edge savings accounts have not been completed.

Money seems to have been debited from these Kaupthing Edge accounts, but has not arrived at the destination accounts nominated -- despite the fact that a CHAPS transfer fee for the transaction has in some cases been charged.

And for the savers in question, this is truly scary.

Concerned Kaupthing customers from the Isle of Man should read this article, as it contains more relevant information for them.

So what happened?

Today, I have spoken with APACS (the UK Payments Association), the Financial Services Compensation Scheme and a spokesperson from Kaupthing Edge.

The bad news is that there’s some confusion over exactly what’s happened with these missing CHAPS payments.

But the good news is that everyone I spoke to was keen to assure savers they’d get all their money back.

APACS

According to APACS, any CHAPS transfers that were set up on the evening before ING Direct's takeover of Kaupthing Edge savings would not have been due for processing until banks reopened the following morning. By this time, unfortunately, a freeze on all Kaupthing accounts was in place.

Although CHAPS transactions are supposed to be same-day transfers, most banks have a cut-off point in place -- typically around 2pm -- after which no more transactions can be processed that day.

If you missed the deadline for authorising a CHAPS payment from your account this Tuesday, or tried to organise one yesterday, APACS says the transaction will not have been processed. This is due to the freeze on accounts which was, by that time, in place.

What does this mean for my money?

According to APACS, this processing problem means that although some people's money appears to have been moved from Kaupthing Edge, it has not in fact left the bank.

While customers’ on-screen statements might show that money has been moved, it is actually still with Kaupthing Edge -- now under the control of ING Direct.

So, any money that you have tried to transfer out of your Kaupthing Edge account should automatically reappear on your statement soon -- although APACS says it’s difficult to say exactly when this will happen.

If APACS is right, ING Direct will now need to trace the transactions customers have made and ensure that everyone’s money is returned to them -- which I think might take some time.

APACS’ advice

APACS’ main message was that people in this difficult situation should try not to panic -- and should keep an eye on their account for the return of the sum they have tried to transfer.

However, the APACS spokesperson I talked with this morning did say it’s important that customers who have attempted unsuccessful transfers print off records of this, and any other recent activity on their accounts, and keep them safe.

Having evidence that you’ve paid for a CHAPS transfer which has not been properly processed should mean you are ultimately able to reclaim the fee for it.

Kaupthing Edge’s comments

After a prolonged telephonic wild goose chase, I finally managed to speak with someone at Kaupthing Edge this afternoon.

Bizarrely, it accounts for the missing CHAPS money in an entirely different way to APACS...

A technical glitch

According to Kaupthing Edge’s spokesperson, the problem with customers’ CHAPS transfers is entirely unrelated to the events of yesterday.

They put the ‘disappearance’ of some customers’ transfers down to a technical glitch: a problem between Kaupthing Edge and the CHAPS clearer, Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS).

According to Kaupthing Edge, this problem was spotted well before the bank’s savings accounts were transferred to ING Direct.

As such, Kaupthing Edge is working with RBS to resolve the problem.

However, the person I spoke with could not confirm whether the money in question will be bounced back to customers’ Kaupthing Edge accounts, or forwarded on to the destination accounts originally nominated.

But, whatever happens, the money should eventually turn up. It's simply a matter of: where?

The FSCS

Britain’s FSCS has been involved with the take-over of Kaupthing Edge’s savings accounts by ING Direct -- so it has its own part to play for consumers.

The FSCS contributed money to facilitate the transfer of Kaupthing Edge’s internet savings accounts to ING Direct, and helped ensure the money in those accounts is protected.

However, Kaupthing Edge and Heritable Bank customers whose accounts are not operated online did not have their savings accounts transferred to ING Direct.

This affects around 3,000 Kaupthing Edge customers and 100 Heritable customers. These people will now be contacted directly by the FSCS so that they can claim whatever compensation is due.

So is my money safe?

As I said at the beginning of this article, the good news for Kaupthing Edge customers is that everyone I’ve spoken to today is sure they’ll get all their money back.

The spokesperson from Kaupthing was especially keen to reassure customers that they wouldn’t lose a penny.

So I’d advise Kaupthing Edge savers to try and stay calm -- and watch all their accounts very carefully over the next few days to see if (and where) their missing money turns up.

I know this is an incredibly stressful time for anyone with savings. It’s terrible to wonder where your hard earned cash has gone -- but the message from everyone I talked with today was to stay calm and hang in there.

Hopefully, in line with what I’ve found out (and no matter which version of events turns out to be right), ex-Kaupthing Edge customers will soon be able to breathe easier again.

More: What The Government Bail-Out Means For You | The £50 Billion British Bank Bail-Out | Ensure Your Savings Are Safe!

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Comments

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rober09 09 Oct 2008, 5:23pm

I arrange a BACS transfer of a large amount of money from my Kaupthing A/C on Monday 6th (before the cut off of 2.pm). This had still not appeared in my linked current A/C today despite being shown as a payment from my Kaupthing A/C on the 6th. Normally such transfers occur within three working days.

I rang Kaupthing today at 8am and managed to get through after 20 minutes or so. I was informed that there was a delay in processing BACS transactions due to the number of request for withdrawal which commenced last week.

After checking I was assured by Customer Services that the transaction had been actioned and was awaiting processing in the next day or so.

Hope this helps!!!

HiltonBauer 09 Oct 2008, 5:32pm

I withdrew my money last Saturday 4/10/08 for BACS transfer on the Monday 6/10/08. As of today at 9/10/08 13:00 it still has not arrived in my UK account. Three working days means it should have arrived yesterday 8/10/08. I spoke to their call centre today (after 20 minute wait) who informed me that if it is shown on my statement (which it is) it has been sent. She did say that there is a backlog at the clearing centres (volumes issue) which is beyond KE's control. I still have a sneeky feeling that KE delayed the sending of BACS trans on Monday, Tues, Weds of this week and they only resumed when ING took control.

wasmymoney 09 Oct 2008, 5:47pm

I withdrew my money by Chaps at 9.00am on Tuesday well before the deadline. As of ten minutes ago the money had not appeared in either my linked account or been returned to my KE account.

Everyone seems to be getting a different story. How long does it take to process our transactions? ( Yes I do know how long its supposed to take under normal circumstances). I think KE have not processed any transactions since last Friday and knew that this event was going to happen then.

oxgirl 09 Oct 2008, 5:51pm

can i ask, if I made a BACS on tuesday before 2pm would that transaction have gone through?

iwantosave 09 Oct 2008, 5:53pm

I also tried to withdraw my savings by CHAPS yesterday which has not appeared in my account. I spoke to someone this afternoon after a long wait who also said its in a holding area because of the sheer volume of withdrawals. She said its a safety procedure! Lets hope so!!

lostintransit 09 Oct 2008, 5:54pm

Presumably this article is talking only about KE in the UK or does it also cover KE IOM i.e I shouldn't worry about losing a fortune or is it all i9n the hands of the liquidators?

oxgirl 09 Oct 2008, 5:57pm

they managed to credit my kaupthing account with an amount transferred on tuesday, then I transferred what was left in the account out.

seems funny money has got into kaupthing account no problem hey.........

whoisthedaddy 09 Oct 2008, 5:58pm

Like many others I CHAPS money out on Tuesday 08:00 and am yet to receive it (just checked nearly 3 days later!) ... Question: Has ANYONE received ANY money at all this week from KE?

oxgirl 09 Oct 2008, 6:01pm

i hope it just turns up prob be sometime next week when ing have sorted out kaupthings mess, best just sit tight and hope. all money transferred this week is in a mess, they are going to have to sort it out and we will just have to wait.

maybe ing could post an annoucement on kaupthing site saying to this effect - unless there is anything further to hide, hope not.!!

welovedarling 09 Oct 2008, 6:04pm

Thanks for the article.

I'm reassured to know that it will all get resolved but as the above posts and my own experience (CHAPS Tuesday am) show the truth is probably that the freeze either occurred earlier than 2pm Tuesday or the glitch happened first then the freeze stopped things going ahead.

Can you keep us informed? What I want to know is when will they unfreeze APACS CHAPS transfers? I did another one this morning and it has not come through either.

Guess ING are blocking transfers out until they have a handle on what they have taken over.

lostintransit 09 Oct 2008, 6:37pm

I'm back again as there is no answer posted yet to my question i.e. Does anyone know if deposits with KE IOM were also bought by ING or only deposits with KE in the UK? Like many of you my request to transfer a lot of funds to my RBS account appeared to have been met as the balance dropped but like others it is either still in the ether or......?Does anyone know for sure?

janeegg 09 Oct 2008, 6:37pm

Presumably ex KE now ING a/c are being paid interest.

I am losing a significant amount of interest on a daily basis as my entire savings are in limbo.

I think Ing should credit us with interest as they have no idea how long it will take to sort out this debacle.

Londonite 09 Oct 2008, 6:43pm

I did a CHAPS transfer from Kaupthing Edge at noon on Tuesday and thankfully it arrived in my account on Wednesday - so it would seem that some transfers HAVE gone through. It should also be noted that BACS can take up to a week to arrive, so hopefully some of these missing transfers will turn up in people's accounts early next week.

pixiep1 09 Oct 2008, 6:43pm

I'm adding a comment to add something positive to the above notes. A few people posting on the forums on moneysavingexpert have said their CHAPS payments have come through from Kaupthing Edge, usually within about a day. I imagine that that people who have got their money are less motivated to read these articles and post on the forums, so I just wanted to let you all know that some people have got their money already. I did a BACS transfer yesterday and am still waiting for ££££ but this is within normal timescales. Fingers crossed for a fast resolution!! Good luck to all!!

MAYBETOMORROW 09 Oct 2008, 6:51pm

Johan de Wit did not wake up on Wednesday and organised the takeover of KE. IMHO, he had been in discussion with KE, and probably the British and Icelandic governments and financial regulators for a number of days.

So KE froze during discussions.

The staff may have been inputing but until the "door" is opened, it is just data, not transactions.

As no CHAPS have been received ( forget the hiccup rubbish - how simple do they think we are)the "door" may have not been opened yet.

I look forward to someone reporting receiving some money.

Bacs can handle over 30 million transactions a day so if all 160,000 of us acted it would not effect delays.

sodabrab 09 Oct 2008, 6:51pm

Bad news is ING has not bought Kaupthing IoM liquidator has been appointed.

HiltonBauer 09 Oct 2008, 7:05pm

http://www.citywire.co.uk/Adviser/-/news/adviser-news/content.aspx?ID=317137

It appears that payments will commence tomorrow. Read this article.

sporti55 09 Oct 2008, 7:07pm

I spoke to Kaupthing Edge this morning about the money from my fixed rate bond that they assured me would be in my Kaupthing Edge savings account 48 hours later. It still has not arrived and they informed me that it could now take several weeks for this to happen or even longer.

MAYBETOMORROW 09 Oct 2008, 7:18pm

Your KE money is safe. Sleep well

Go to the HM Treasury website & see Press Notice 103/08.

MAYBETOMORROW 09 Oct 2008, 7:34pm

Thanks, Hilton.

Nice work

robborollover 09 Oct 2008, 7:46pm

Hi all, I also have money with KE and feel
reasurred by Laura Starkys latest informative article, wheres my KE cash I hope you have all read it.
Not sure about IOM KE tho didnt sound too good on Channel 4 news tonight,saying the treasury would not pay out and its up to IOM govt.
All keep writing.

georgethefox 09 Oct 2008, 7:47pm

I too sent my money out from KE on MOn 6th Oct in the morning and have still not seen it in my current account.
Spoke to KE customer services this morning, and they said it was due to a backlog of payments because of the sheer volume, and the money should be at the destination account very soon. IMO should be OK.

voleshafter 09 Oct 2008, 8:05pm

A helpful article from Laura and thanks to Hilton for the link to the CityWire article.

I am trying to maintain a sense of calm and perspective that(as MAYBETOMORROW has pointed out) this will take a few days but it will get sorted out.

Can you imagine if you were CFO for one of the local authorities (or resident) who are currently grappling with this horrible problem.....??

ndoto7 09 Oct 2008, 8:51pm

Help! I tried to transfer funds from KE IOM on Tues pm but now can't even access the site. What can I do to find out what's happening to my money?

TheThurloSquire 09 Oct 2008, 9:14pm

Money with KE IOM will not be guaranteed by UK government but will be subject to IOM Compensation scheme which has just been raised to £50K today. The whole thing is horrendous as I have just lost 6 figure sum with KE IOM and not likely to see a penny at the moment as it was invested via a life insurance company who pooled all depositors funds and therefore are classed as one depositor...!!! Some much for telling my IFA that this money needed to be 100% safe...!!

rhbbpd 09 Oct 2008, 10:08pm

I am really sorry for you TheThurloSquire. I guess we shall have to see what the liquidators have said today. When I checked with the Isle of Man branch in February, before making a deposit they told me that not only were they covered by the 75% up to £20K but any more was covered entirely by the parent company in Iceland. I am completely confused. The Icelandic government appear to be borrowing from the Russians (if it is to be believed) but the branches in England are covered by finance from the British Government - and ING have bought Kaupthing??? So where do they stand in it all?? Can anyone enlighten me?

sodabrab 09 Oct 2008, 10:15pm

Hi Thurlo I'm in a similar position to yourself and rang life company today. To be fair to them they provided me with all the information they have to hand. Not very happy with my IFA as he didn't explain compensation scheme properly. At this stage my only hope is that there are enough assets with KSF IoM to entice a possible suitor.

1log 09 Oct 2008, 10:33pm

Kaupthing Singer Friedlander IOM savings account. Please can we discuss this particular issue which is NOT covered by the UK treasury at the moment. I have sold my house and put my entire money here till I could move and use it. This disastrous situation has shaken me and I am sleepless waiting to hear if anyone can ressurect this situation. We were given guarantee by the parent bank, which is now taken over by Iceland govt. and is still functioning. Surely they have to honour the savings deposits. The other option is if ING would extend its arm to IOM. All in all I can say that this is a very traumatic period in my life and I would urge people to focus on IOM, since all KE accounts in UK are safe.

Hmmmn 09 Oct 2008, 10:42pm

Thank you for the article and the postings below. I authorised a transfer via BACS on the 6th October and it apparently left on the 7th Oct. In a way I was warned by my IFA (i.e. father!) not to be so silly in Feb 2008 when I couldn't resist the interest rates. It's a relatively small amount (but still hard earned) and I really feel for everyone on the site.

It all still feels surreal...

Here's to the money turning up tomorrow or next week.

Hmmmn 09 Oct 2008, 10:44pm

oh and 1log - that's really rubbish. What have the FSCA said about it? Good luck.

peepobaby 09 Oct 2008, 11:14pm

Kaupthing ran out of cash so you need to wait for assets to convert to cash or a compensation scheme to pay out.

oxgirl 10 Oct 2008, 12:02am

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/saving-and-banking/article.html?in_article_id=455070&in_page_id=7&position=moretopstories

TheThurloSquire 10 Oct 2008, 12:32am

1log - OMG that is even more horrendous and sounds like you have lost everything. I will survive but something should be done about this as many innocent savers have been caught up in other peoples greed......

occamsrazors 10 Oct 2008, 12:47am

Those customers of Kaupthing Isle of Man please join these threads, there are many others who have potentially lost their life savings and are in the same boat:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1203227

http://www.moneysupermarket.com/community/forums/t/kaupthing-singer-amp-friedlander-iom-isle-of-man-25211.aspx

finesus 10 Oct 2008, 1:13am

I put through CHAPS transfer from K-E on WEDNESDAY AT 10:29am. It was debited from my account together with the £20 Chaps fee online immediately. Now FRIDAY 1AM and still has not been received. This means ING have still not put the payment through ! If, as you say, they knew they had technical problems before the transfer to ING took place, which was before Wednesday, WHY did they debit my account on Wednesday whilst knowing the transaction would not go through ? It makes absolutely no sense at all. The only thing that does make sense is that ING cannot pay or do not want to pay at the present time and they know why but they are not saying. The question is not just as you say WHERE the money that has disappeared will turn up but also WHEN will it turn up. And what about the interest lost in the meantime ? This is hardly a way to re-engineer trust and confidence in the Banks, is it ? ING tell me I must "wait for the dust to settle and we cannot say when the transfer will take place". Did they not have a contract with me to submit the CHAPS transfer on Wednesday having confirmed the transaction online and debited the K-E account ? Completely unacceptable.

Olipro 10 Oct 2008, 1:56am

I have cash in Kaupthing Edge myself, though my first instinct upon hearing that the UK government had seized them and handed the business over to ING was to do absolutely nothing.

To be perfectly honest, all I care about is getting the same interest rate that I'm still due under the current terms and conditions.

As much as I dislike the government, I do nonetheless trust that they don't spend their parliament sessions smoking crack, and hence tend to hold faith when they pass a business over to another that just so happens to have a rather good CDS rating.

If people didn't panic and cause bank runs, the banks wouldn't go bust - and to be ultimately honest, do you really expect a CHAPS to get you speedier service than a BACS transaction (not counting the actual speed of the clearing house itself)

grievance 10 Oct 2008, 5:54am

I withdrew my money from KE via Chaps at 13:40 on Thursday (9.10.08) before the deadline of 14:00. It's now 05:41am the money still hasn't appeared in my linked account or been returned to my KE account.

I've been advised to keep an eye on the KE account over the next few working days, and not to be surprised to see my money transfered back in to the KE account. If a CHAPS transfer doesn't take place on the same day, I understand we would be entitled to reclaim the transfer fee. However, I'd be mush happier (obviously)to see a successful transfer into my linked account. WHERE HAS MY MONEY GONE?

oxgirl 10 Oct 2008, 6:04am

im starting to think kaupthing edge customers are just being paid lip service. we wont get the money for a while yet? the ING thing is a stall, as apparently there is no reason for bacs or chaps to stall, they handle millions of those transactions, more like they are not giving us the money yet until they liquidate iceland assets and see what money they have first. I wonder if they actually have any idea when we will get the money

oxgirl 10 Oct 2008, 6:06am

it just feels like we are being lied to/ stalled.

no money in my link account yet

jonnie2thumbs 10 Oct 2008, 6:53am

why trust a foreign bank???

jonnie2thumbs 10 Oct 2008, 6:54am

i don't even trust English banks

oxgirl 10 Oct 2008, 7:07am

i just need to know when i will get the money, im not working at the moment for personal reasons and live off my savings, so if i know when i will be getting the money or not it will be, or I will have to claim housiing benefit

dog1031 10 Oct 2008, 7:13am

What I want to know is, I have an online savings account, two 1 year fixed rate accounts, do I get my money and the interest that has accrued.

oxgirl 10 Oct 2008, 7:19am

let us know if you get any kaupthing money today anyone!!

spilsz 10 Oct 2008, 7:27am

i did a transfer on monday night (BACS) still no money in my linked account.

jachon 10 Oct 2008, 7:41am

I did a bacs transfer on Monday at 8am and checked my account this morning still not reached my account. I spent 3 hours costantly calling yesterday morning and then waited 25 minutes to talk to someone who says all transactions completed on Monday and Tuesday will definately be going through but will just take a bit longer. What she could not say was how much longer. How long are we expected to wait when this money has not earned any interest since monday and it still not received on friday (already done about £70 in interest). Has anyone in this forum received monies into their account which was requested by bacs on monday ?

landlordray 10 Oct 2008, 7:42am

Still no transfer money in my linked account and no reply from secure message system from KE/ING. Telephone call yesterday was not very hopeful, said they did not know when of if the money would be paid or returned to my KE account. Any definitive info would be appreciated

raycam34 10 Oct 2008, 8:01am

If it helps I transferred money from Icesave to my UK bank account 9am Monday using BACS. It disappeared from my Icesave account immediately but has arrived back in my Icesave account today.
I think you will all see the money back in your KE accounts as the receiving bank will refuse the transfer as KE transfers have no cash to send.
You might lose your £30 CHAPS though.
Best of luck to you all.

Dhahran2001 10 Oct 2008, 8:03am

It does seem that some reponders to this article did not understand what Laura wrote quite clearly!

richardr101 10 Oct 2008, 8:14am

Well raycam34, that could be very interesting, as my wife transferred our 'baby fund' out of our IceSave account on Monday, which then closed the account, so in our case there may not be an account for it to go back to.

What happens then??

204panadil 10 Oct 2008, 8:20am

Aren't I glad I didn't follow the advice to bump up my interest rate by using Kaupthing Edge and stuck with boring old reliable First Direct (HSBC).

sov15ski 10 Oct 2008, 8:21am

looking at the general picture, it would now appear that Britain is embroiled in a new cod war style tiff with Iceland, over this banking problem which is a real shame. I think that Iceland acted in good faith for waht was the situation at the time.
I really think that people should save their anger for the US of America who caused all the problems in the first instance, and in particular Alan Greenspan who kept interest rates artificaly low for a long period of time, allowing cheap leanding, which allowed the housing market to spiral out of control, with sub prime lending also. But waht do we hear now? not just in the US, but in Britain, that interest rates may need to be slashed further, and so I am thinking to myself, that nothing has been learnt from this mess. Why bother saving any money for a rainy day, if inflation is rocketing, as it is currently doing, yet the greedy ones still want to dicourage savings.
I was always taught to save up for what I wanted, and to never expect easy credit, and not to buy things on the never, never.
I feel that the US of America should now dig in to its pockets, and put right the trouble that it has caused, otherwise some of us will perceive it to be not just bankrupt, but also morally bunkrupt also. So much for the special relationship, as I think you can count me out of that one, to use their own terminology.
Last year Britain finally paid them off for the world two loan lease arrangement, with high interest, with every doller being recouped. We should now be demanding that they put right the mess that they have caused, especially to pensioners savers, hard working families, and councils, charities etc.
Come on US of America, it is time to cough up some greenbacks, as we are holding our hands out here!

soulsaver1 10 Oct 2008, 8:25am

I know this is a worrying time (How do I know -'cos I've got significant sums on deposit with KE, too) but no one should be surprised with the wait- there are 100s of thousands of accounts , millions of transactions (including bounced transactions) accounting & legal issues that ING need to get sorted. Try to remain calm & give them a few days to start to get sorted and most of these issues will have been resolved. It's little consolation for people who need their money now but a few days ago we thought we could have lost it & would be waiting months for compensation along with the Icesave (me again) guys. Good Luck everyone.

sov15ski 10 Oct 2008, 8:25am

looking at the general picture, it would now appear that Britain is embroiled in a new cod war style tiff with Iceland, over this banking problem which is a real shame. I think that Iceland acted in good faith for waht was the situation at the time.
I really think that people should save their anger for the US of America who caused all the problems in the first instance, and in particular Alan Greenspan who kept interest rates artificaly low for a long period of time, allowing cheap lending, which allowed the housing market to spiral out of control, with sub prime lending also. But what do we hear now? not just in the US, but in Britain, that interest rates may need to be slashed further, and so I am thinking to myself, that nothing has been learnt from this mess. Why bother saving any money for a rainy day, if inflation is rocketing, as it is currently doing, yet the greedy ones still want to discourage savings.
I was always taught to save up for what I wanted, and to never expect easy credit, and not to buy things on the never, never.
I feel that the US of America should now dig in to its pockets, and put right the trouble that it has caused, otherwise some of us will perceive it to be not just bankrupt, but also morally bankrupt also. So much for the special relationship, as I think you can count me out of that one, to use their own terminology.
Last year Britain finally paid them off for the world two 'loan lease' arrangement, with high interest, with every doller being recouped. We should now be demanding that they put right the mess that they have caused, especially to pensioners savers, hard working families, and councils, charities etc.
Come on US of America, it is time to cough up some greenbacks, as we are holding our hands out here!

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tranzform 10 Oct 2008, 8:37am

Does anyone have any good news yet?

I have registered a complaint online with the FSA this morning - they will not investigate individual issues, but I have asked could they establish the position with KE regarding clients 'missing' money. I'll post any response but don't hold your breath.
Perhaps if they receive enough complaints from us they'll do something?

martint123 10 Oct 2008, 8:53am

I noted this changed text on their home page (I can't remember seeing it last night).

When Kaupthing Edge encountered difficulties, withdrawals were not able to be completed. This is now being resolved and we are in the process of clearing the backlog of pending transactions. ING Direct will honour all withdrawals as soon as possible.

jezbutler 10 Oct 2008, 8:58am

Cheers Martint123 - just tried ING's helpdesk, but was facing a 20 minute wait.

wthornton 10 Oct 2008, 9:04am