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What About Kaupthing?

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Should I Sell My Shares?

Published in Savings on 3 October 2008

Many Fools have taken out a savings account with Icelandic bank, Kaupthing. Following financial turmoil in Iceland, is this account safe?

We’ve recommended the Kaupthing Edge instant access savings account several times recently. This is because this account pays out a cracking 6.55% AER in interest and there are no catches, bonuses or gimmicks.

What’s more, Kaupthing has given a guarantee that its rate will be at least 0.3% higher than the Bank of England’s base rate until February 2012.

Concerns

Unfortunately, however, the financial crisis has sparked concerns over Kaupthing’s future. Fools may be worried that their savings are no longer safe.

To understand more, we need to look at a financial instrument called a Credit Default Swap (CDS). These swaps are insurance-like contracts that promise to cover losses on certain securities if the issuer goes bust.

So, for example, you might own Barclays corporate bonds. If you’re worried that Barclays might go bust, you could buy a CDS in Barclays. Then if Barclays did fold, you’d get your money back on your bonds.

We can see the latest CDS rates on our Bloomberg screen at Fool HQ, and as I write, you’d have to pay 2.48% for a CDS in Barclays. However, the rate is much higher for Kaupthing – currently it’s 23%. So the market thinks Barclays is a safer bet than Kaupthing.

This doesn’t mean Kaupthing is necessarily going to go bust. But it does mean that at least some investors think it’s very risky.

Iceland

Why have investors become so worried?

On Monday, the Icelandic government nationalised another bank, Glitnir, which was bound to trigger concern. What’s more, Iceland’s economy is in serious trouble – inflation has reached 14% and the Icelandic Krona has fallen 32% against the euro over the last month. And credit in Iceland is reportedly tightening fast.

That said, I think Kaupthing has done the right things over the last year. As a result, it’s in a stronger position to cope with the turmoil.

It has cut back on lending and has worked hard to attract money from savers. It also sold part of its UK business in August and has raised extra cash from the stock market. Indeed, a new investor came in on September 23 when a member of Qatar’s royal family bought a 5% stake in the bank for $285m (£161m).

Kaupthing also has operations across Europe – it’s not reliant solely on the Icelandic economy.

What now?

It’s dangerous to make firm predictions in the current climate but I don’t think Fools should be too concerned. I think Kaupthing will probably get through this. As I say, the bank has been well-managed recently and has done the right things.

But since we’ve recommended Kaupthing Edge so often in the recent past, I thought it only responsible to warn Fools there are concerns about its future in this difficult financial climate.

Even if I’m wrong, and Kaupthing does run into trouble, the Icelandic government may organise some form of rescue as it did with Glitnir. Admittedly, Kaupthing is a large bank compared to the size of the Icelandic economy, but other countries may help out the Icelandic government. It’s in all of Europe’s interest to limit further banking crises.

In the UK….

The good news is if you have a savings account with Kaupthing Edge in the UK, it’s operated by a subsidiary called Kaupthing, Singer and Friedlander. This means that any account in the UK is fully protected by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS).

So if Kaupthing did go bust, you could claim back all your savings to £50,000, and you wouldn’t have to deal with any organisation in Iceland. (The FSCS ceiling is going up on Tuesday from £35,000 to £50,000). The only problem with the FSCS is that we don’t know how quick the payments would be – it might take a few months.

Of course, the FSCS may not even come into play. The UK government stepped in when Northern Rock, Bradford & Bingley, and HBOS hit trouble, and it may well do the same for Kaupthing, Singer and Friedlander.

What should you do?

If you have less than £50,000 in Kaupthing Edge, you can rest assured that your money is protected. If you have more than £50,000, it might be prudent to move the excess somewhere else – just as you should with any British bank.

The absolute safest places for your money are Northern Rock, and National Savings & Investment. However, Northern Rock is trying to halt the flood of new savers so you may have to hurry.

The Irish banks are also backed by a 100% guarantee by the Irish government. So you might want to consider the Anglo Irish Bank Easy Access Deposit Issue 2, which is currently paying 6.4% on savings.

We live in extraordinary times, but let’s remember that no UK saver has lost money as a result of the current crisis. And given the likelihood of government rescues, I reckon that will remain the case.

More: The Safest Places To Deposit Your Money | The Safest Way To Save (And Beat Tax & Inflation) | The Government Must Guarantee Savings! | Profit From Credit Default Swaps

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Comments

The opinions expressed here are those of the individual writers and are not representative of The Motley Fool. If you spot any comments that are unsuitable hit the flag to alert our moderators.

countervail 03 Oct 2008, 1:42pm

I was going to open a fixed rate bond with Kaupthing Edge. I’m was too worried about the security of the deposit especially as all my money would be covered under the FSA scheme, but the terms and conditions had a novation agreement that meant they can move all my savings to Kaupthing Bank.

If they do this about half my money would be covered under the FSA scheme and the rest under the Icelandic scheme.

This really put me off. I don’t speak Icelandic so I feel that it might cost me a lot of hassle, pain and time trying and recover my money should the worst happen.


Might be worth other people checking this, I might have got it wrong but I don’t think so.

onlyroz 03 Oct 2008, 2:06pm

Any opinions on the other Icelandic bank - Landsbanki? I've got an Icesave ISA, and some of their customers are starting to get a bit twitchy...

teecee90 03 Oct 2008, 2:40pm

If you can keep your head when all around are losing theirs.....

pinkfreddy 03 Oct 2008, 4:41pm

I have significantly more than the FSCS backed £50K in Icesave fixed rate accounts. I have checked the terms and conditions, and no withdrawals are allowed until maturity. I usually manage to keep my head when all around are losing theirs, but I have to admit to being a tinsy bit nervous this time. It seems there is nothing I can do but keep everything crossed.

berna47 03 Oct 2008, 4:52pm

I have a bond on kaupthing bank in CHF that matures in February 2010. Are bonds insured too? Or would I lose all the money if they go bankrupt?

sosnovka 03 Oct 2008, 6:46pm

The UK compensation scheme does not apply to the Kaupthing's Isle of Man bank branch. There I think the total the depositor is covered for by the government is 16,500 pounds. Sucks.

TMFArkle 04 Oct 2008, 12:17pm

Hello everyone,

Here are some follow-up comments, starting with Countervail:

Yes, you're right, Kaupthing could novate the accounts back to Kaupthing Bank in Iceland. However, Kaupthing Edge would have to give 30 days notice before it did this, and I'm assured by Kaupthing that it's an extremely unlikely scenario.

Onlyroz: Yes, Landsbanki is caught up in this too and also has very high credit default swap rates. I've not looked as closely at Landesbanki's financial position so I'm not sure about how they will fare.

Re the FSCS: as I understand it, you will have to claim first from the Icelandic scheme, and then once you've been paid by that, you can claim the rest of the £50,000 from the FSCS. However, I should stress that I've not checked this with Icesave this week, so I'm not guaranteeing that I'm right on this.

Pinkfreddy: Yes, you have my sincere sympathy. That's a very worrying situation to be in. I suspect you're right when you say: 'It seems there is nothing I can do but keep everything crossed.' However, I've not checked the terms and conditions myself or spoken to Icesave. It might be worth consulting a good solicitor, accountant or IFA -just to check that there's nothing more you can do.

Berna47: I'm not certain about your bond. I'm not sure what type of bond you have, and even if I did, I still might not be sure what the situation is.

Sosnovka: I'm sorry that the FSCS doesn't apply to the Isle of Man. I didn't know that. I'm pretty sure you could still claim from the Icelandic scheme though.

Regards,

Ed

TMFArkle 04 Oct 2008, 4:04pm

Just to reassure pinkfreddy a little, the Chancellor said yesterday: 'the authorities will do whatever is necessary to maintain financial stability and protect depositors.'

That's being seen as an implicit guarantee for savers, so it may mean that the UK government will refund all of pinkfreddy's savings in the Icesave bond, should the worst happen. That said, I'm not 100% sure that Darling's comments can be intepreted in that way.

Ed

memetic 05 Oct 2008, 8:45am

To say that no UK saver has lost money in the current crisis is to simply repeat and strengthen government spin.

Anyone saving in products linked to equity has almost certainly lost money.

Our pensions have lost money, and as tax payers we will be lose money paying for benefits due to job losses and government bail outs.

Face fact we have not lost deposits, but we have lost money and will continue to do so for some time.

avfc2002 05 Oct 2008, 9:38am

Everyone seems to be jumping on the Ireland bandwagon. I am not sure this is a great idea - one does wonder if the international money managers wont deposit into these Irish Banks why should we johnny public take up the slack?

Whilst all deposits are guaranteed by the Irish Goverment, how good is it for these guarantees if the worst happened. We are talking of a relatively small country where the total guarantees could be in excess of 3 times GDP. If the banks collapsed, Irish business would go into very serious recession which would have even a bigger effect on GDP, making it even harder for Goverment guarantee refunds.

Germany the Euro powerhouse has already said it will not stand behind problems outside its borders! Why would the international community bail out the Irish economy.

oozat 05 Oct 2008, 10:36am

Re novation: it's not quite clear how much notice you would be entitled to receive - it may be that, in extremis, merely announcing the novation on the website would be sufficient. I have two fixed rate deals with Kaupthing, due to mature early December. From their T & C it is possible to close the deal early - the penalty is a reduction of the interest rate paid by 1%. At the moment I'm seriously considering whether to close - the interest would still be 5.97%. On the other hand, could the largest Icelandic bank be allowed to fail.......?

alucarDrM 05 Oct 2008, 11:15am

On Monday, the Icelandic government nationalised another bank, Glitnir

Which raises the question: What other banks have the Icelandic government nationalised?

MrRee007 05 Oct 2008, 11:31am

I have just withdrawn my funds from Kaupthing and Icesave - call me a coward, but it has taken 35 years to build what I have and the thought of losing it fills me with dread.

I still have a Icesave ISA, still trying to work out how to extract that without losing its Tax benefits?

The guarantees and assurances given by Governments is to instil confidence - personally, I am of the opinion that we have not seen the worst of it. It's like a secondhand car salesman selling a clapped-out car, "If anything goes wrong, bring it back and it will be fixed free of charge" ... the gearbox fails and you return to the garage, where there is a sign over the door 'Bankrupt'. A worthless guarantee in other words!

integradc5 05 Oct 2008, 11:35am

For those with Icesave, this statement is on their website:

http://www.icesave.co.uk/important-information.html

My reading of that is that deposits up to £50k are just as safe with them as with any UK-registered bank, so I see no need to withdraw, unless you need immediate access and are concerned that in the event of collapse you won't be able to wait for the compensation scheme to pay out.

Please do let me know if you see/know of anything to the contrary!

FireBlade98 05 Oct 2008, 12:08pm

On the strength of the articles that i've read on TMF, i've invested £2100 (so far) in Kaupthing Edge.

Thanks very much for this article, Ed!

OrangeWhale 05 Oct 2008, 12:57pm

Ireland has ca 6 million inhabitants and was in 2006 ranked the second wealthiest country in the world, showing an average wealth per head of nearly €150,000 (~ $190,000).[Wikipedia] Ahead of countries such as the USA, UK and Germany.

In contrast, Iceland only has ca 300,000 inhabitants; the size of a medium UK city. The past 5 years, Iceland's banks have gone on a shopping spree, based on high debts. Last week, Kaupthing credit rating was downsized to BBB- by Fitch (= junk status).

During 2008, the Iceland krona has plunged over 30%, inflation increased up to 14% and Iceland stock market is down more than 22%. Country budget deficit is amongst highest in Europe.

In contrast to Ireland, Iceland is not part of the EU and has no protection of the European Bank.

Question is not if Iceland's banks go bust or will become nationalised, question is if the entire country will go bust.

Enjoy your Icesavings account!

spexii 05 Oct 2008, 3:48pm

Kaupthing Edge and Icesave both have statements on their websites about the current financial situation, which say that your savings with them (up to £50k) are covered by:
- the UK FSCS (in the case of K.E.)
- first €20,887 by the Icelandic Depositors' and Investors' Guarantee Fund and the rest by the UK FSCS (in the case of Icesave).

http://www.kaupthingedge.co.uk/About/ImportantInformation.aspx
http://www.icesave.co.uk/important-information.html

So I believe that my deposits with Icesave are as safe as with any UK bank. If they did go bust, it might take a while to get hold of my money if I needed it (Icesave website says within 3 months) but I'm confident I'd get the money back.

TMFArkle 05 Oct 2008, 4:48pm

Hi Memetic,

'To say that no UK saver has lost money in the current crisis is to simply repeat and strengthen government spin.'

I think it was 100% clear what I meant. In other words, no saver has lost money from their savings account. Of course, the situation is completely different with investments in equities -it always is.

Yes, there have been a lot of problems with pensions in recent years, and we've written extensively about those problems on The Fool. I didn't say in this article: 'no pensioner has lost money in recent years' or 'nobody has seen their pension fund decline in value.'

Re the issue of Labour spin: We try hard to remain politically neutral at TMF, and if you went through all my articles here, I think you'd struggle to find a clear indication of how I voted at the last election, or any other election.

Regards,

Ed

juljam13 05 Oct 2008, 11:07pm

I WAS TOLD THAT WITH A BOND YOU WOULD GET YOUR INITIAL INVESTMENT BACK UP TO THE £35,000 BUT YOU WOULD NOT RECIEVE ANY INTEREST AS IT IS NOT ADDED UNTIL THE END OF THE TERM.

hanalol 06 Oct 2008, 9:50am

It seems that Kaupthing savings are secure (provided that they are not migrated to Kaupthing Bank after notice, which some above have referred to).
Icesave seems the worry. Yes, the first chunk would be covered Icelandic authorities and the remainder up to £35k (or £50k from tomorrow) from our own compensation scheme.
But what guarantees are there that the Icelandic scheme is or will be adequately funded to make payouts? Does anybody have a view or any knowledge on this?
Politically it seems to me that it would be v difficult for our government to leave a substantial amount of savers with Icesave in the lurch - headline rates must have attracted a significant number - if the initial amount from the Icelandic authorities were not forthcoming. But who knows....?

warwick12 06 Oct 2008, 2:52pm

My mortgage is with Kaupthing Isle of Man (it was originally with Singer & Friedlander before Kaputhing acquired them). What will happen with my mortgage if they go bust.

rober09 06 Oct 2008, 5:18pm

I ave bailed out of Kaupthing which is a pity as I have found them very good!

I am happy my savings were totally guaranteed but I could not wait upto the six months it seems might be needed for my savings to be returned. I do not know about anyone else but I would have need of some of my funds long before that!!!

I am going back to one of the larger mutual building societies until the dust settles.

KT2345 06 Oct 2008, 11:08pm

Yep,same here, i just withdrew 35k from kaupthing..my whole balance...ok ok! we are all "covered" by the FSA! but waiting around for the FSA to pay out?well i dont want to wait at all, i want to keep earning £180 a month interest on my 35k! so my 35k is off to ING DIRECT indeed until the dust settles

btw: persoanlly i found Kaupings customer service and online screw ups to be a pain anyway

Krilb 06 Oct 2008, 11:46pm

With Kaupthing Edge we are covered by the FSCS Scheme which will be £50,000 very shortly. However, what rate of interest would be paid between lodging a claim and receiving the amount of the claim (principal and accrued interest)?

JohnnyOR 07 Oct 2008, 12:52am

Hindsight is a wonderful thing I know but I'm afraid that a recommendation of a Bank Account based purely on the fact that,
"This is because this account pays out a cracking 6.55% AER in interest and there are no catches, bonuses or gimmicks." is pretty poor advice.
No catches except that the bank may well go bust.
Motley Fool has done itself no favours with this recommendation, did nobody think to ask why it's rates are so high? Buyer beware comes to mind.
Personally I've banked with the same boring British High St bank with a AAA rating, paying an OK rate & good customer service for 40+ years.
Somethings are more important than the best rate & sleeping well comes high on that list.

integradc5 07 Oct 2008, 9:15am

Unable to get access to Icesave accounts at the moment. :(

Article on the Times website states that the Icelandic government claims to have enough capital to cover the £4bn of UK deposits in Landsbanki. It better had, that's my money to pay my income tax!

integradc5 07 Oct 2008, 10:18am

Apparently the Icelandic government will back 100% of customer deposits: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7655227.stm

oozat 07 Oct 2008, 12:14pm

Apparently the Icelandic government will back 100% of customer deposits
But as I understand it, deposits in Icelandic banks in this country are held by UK institutions. So until someone else in the EU breaks ranks cover will still be limited to £50000. Perhaps novation looks more attractive now? :-)

integradc5 07 Oct 2008, 2:04pm

Well, Icesave stats that the first €20k is covered by Iceland's FSA-equivalent, the rest up to £50k by our FSA. Not sure how that works, as if they're covered by the FSA at all, how come the whole sum isn't covered in the UK?

megansam 08 Oct 2008, 6:10pm

Just checking on others latest experience with Kaupthing, Singer and Friedlander in Isle of man. We had money with Derbyshire in IOM for many years then last year they were taken over by Kaupthing. All has been well until the latest turmoil made us worry about the limited deposit insurance available via IOM. We gave instructions to Kaupthing to transfer 80% of money out of our account but as of today (4 days later) they have not complied. Now the branch in IOM is not picking up the phone. Other Kaupthing branches are not any help except to rely messages which are not being returned. It seems that Kaupthing in IOM is not contactable.

Does anyone have any idea about what is going on?

Foolish3232 08 Oct 2008, 8:44pm

I think there can only be one conclusion that the money hasnt been sent because not one poster who has said that they have request payments sent in the last few days and has seen the money left on the screen has had it arrive. I requested a chaps out of kaupthing edge IOM on Monday.

MAYBETOMORROW 09 Oct 2008, 9:07am

My Monday's bac's request and yesterday's chaps has not arrived. Has anyone received any money this week.

linsinafrica 09 Oct 2008, 10:05am

This morning (Thursday) the Isle of Man Financial commision have suspended KS&F Licence they ahve been put into liquidation. Visit the www.gov.im web site for latest news. A compensation packing is being discussed now and will be posted on FSSC web site by midday. I am an investor!!!!

LETOUQUET 09 Oct 2008, 10:28am

I have yet to receive Tuesday (7th) BACS. The amount as gone from my KE statement but not arrived @ my nominated account. The phone line is constantly busy !! Oh heck

frances01 09 Oct 2008, 11:20am

I transferred money from Kaupthing on Monday at around 18.00 and paid the CHAPS fee. Money arrived in HBOS Tuesday just before 18.00, so some transfers must have been done.

asynnrehman 10 Oct 2008, 6:39am

Does anyone have more news on the Kaupthing IOM other than they have gone into liquidation. I flew to the IOM on Wednesday to make a withdrawal and was given a chaps slip confirming payment. This has not materialised, and I suspect it was a ruse to buy more time at that time. Even if I was to receive £50 compensation this would be less that 20% of my total investment - Its a joke. The IOM is a Crown Protectorate, and such Downing Street is responsible for its Foreign Affairs and we should be pressurising them to look into our predicament. I am really upset, and feel let down.

LETOUQUET 10 Oct 2008, 10:10am

Having found that my BACS from K/E has still not arrived it was suggested to me by Lloyds I telephone the FSCS, which I did. They were very helpful and stated that most BACS withdrawals are being paid back into Kaupthing Edge/Ing accounts. Lets hope so. Perhaps you IOM investers should give them a call. Its worth a try.

edgykaup 10 Oct 2008, 6:06pm

I have been reading this excellent site today and have registered. I took out £30k from my Kaupthing Edge savings account on Saturday 4 Oct. It showed as leaving the account on Monday 6 Oct. I did not use CHAPS opting for BACS instead. The money did not appear until today at 3.30pm into my First Direct account. Almost 5 working days!
I am confident that you will get your money whether it is sent back to your Kaupthing account or is on its way to your account as mine was.

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