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It's 2-2 In The Bank Charges Case

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Is It Right To Reclaim Bank Charges?

Published in Your Money on 10 October 2008

The banks have pulled level in the bank charges fight, but there’s at least one more round to go. Read all about where the contenders stand...

Time for an update on bank charges:

A re-cap of round one

Back in April the High Court ruled that the Office of Fair Trading is allowed to use the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (UTCCR) to assess whether bank charges are fair. This means that Office of Fair Trading (OFT) can instruct, or put pressure on, the banks to stop penalty charges. It could also make it easier for people to reclaim previous charges. The banks, unsurprisingly, are appealing against this decision, and the appeal case is yet to be heard.

In the same ruling, the judge considered whether the charges were penalties under 'common law'. Common law is different to the UTCCR. Common law is law that has built up over the years through court rulings in individual cases. This makes it very different from ‘legislation’, such as the UTCCR. Legislation is law that comes from Parliament.

In contrast to the ruling on the UTCCR, the ruling on common law was in the banks' favour. The judge found that the banks' current terms and conditions did not contain penalties under common law. However, the judge did not at that time consider historical terms and conditions. As most banks have recently changed their terms and conditions to tighten them up against criticism, this meant another hearing was needed to assess historical penalties.

Given the total victory that consumers had with the UTCCR ruling, but the partial ruling against on common law, I consider that the first round was a victory for claimants. The score at that time was 2 - 1.

We've just had round two

However, that's old news. The new news is we had a second hearing in the summer and the judge has just now ruled. This second hearing was about whether historical (old) T&Cs contained penalty charges in common law. Remember, in the first ruling it was just current T&Cs that the judge ruled on.

Thankfully, this second ruling was a mere 33 pages, so I didn't get the haemorrhage I got reading the previous 119-page ruling! On the downside, the judge decided that historical T&Cs also didn't contain penalties under common law.

This ruling isn't surprising, however. The judge’s arguments and overall tone in the first ruling had already indicated his probable position. He has yet to rule on a few of the terms and conditions for a couple of the banks (Lloyds, Royal Bank of Scotland, and NatWest). Even so, I don't expect him to conclude any differently, so that's pretty much evened the score to 2 - 2.

This means we’ll have to await the third round: the appeal case regarding the UTCCRs, to find out where we stand.

My biggest concern

My biggest concern for claimants used to be whether the banks' silver-tongued, well-paid and extremely talented lawyers can sway the judge in the appeal case. I now have a greater concern.

The OFT is yet to decide whether it would rule that penalty charges are unlawful, even if it wins again the right to do so after the appeal hearing. Now, here's what the OFT said about bank charges recently (according to the BBC):

'We are progressing our investigation as quickly as possible and are in continuing discussion with the banks about our provisional views on the issue of fairness.'

I have suspected for some months from the way that the OFT has been handling its investigation that it has been very closely discussing the charges with the banks. However, this is not about discussion. There's no debate. No friendly three-course meals with port and claret necessary. This is an investigation and, ultimately, an interpretation of the law. Just the facts, ma’am.

This is ever a problem with Government departments, QUANGOs (to coin a dying acronym), and public, non Government-department bodies such as the OFT. The problem with all of them is that they are supposed to help one group, typically us, the public, but they usually help those that they're supposed to be keeping an eye on instead. That's because they are in contact with the groups they're 'watching' more than anyone else. How many times has the OFT called you to discuss your views? And yet the OFT talks to the banks.

The strongest voice (in this case, pretty much the only voice) is the one that sweet-talks, threatens, jokes and asks for the lunch bill. I don't know how much this is happening in this particular case. However, I previously described the idea of the OFT ruling that charges were fair as 'remote'. Now, my instincts tell me it's not as remote as I previously thought. But these are just instincts, not facts.

Why fight for those who've paid bank charges?

The Motley Fool is all about providing guidance for people of all financial positions in order to optimise your finances. We encourage you to do this in any way you can, provided it's lawful and not underhand. I hope that all Fool readers do better than non-Fool readers as a result.

On that basis - of optimising our finances as best we can within the law (more in this blog) - I've argued strongly in the past that the reason we should reclaim charges is purely that they are unlawful. Moral arguments on the one side and the loss of free banking argument on the other are irrelevant as far as the law is concerned.

However, I'm not inhuman, even if I am a financial writer. I do have an opinion on the moral side, so for a change I'd like to express it, even if I wouldn't use it as the basis of an argument for why we should reclaim charges.

The whole 'free banking' system relies on wealthier people paying nothing, or almost nothing, for their current accounts. Meanwhile, poorer people - a large minority of several million - support the whole thing through a spiral of charges on top of charges on top of charges. (Wealthier people get caught out occasionally, but that's immaterial.) My moral view is this totally stinks; I'd happily pay a modest monthly fee with the rest of the country if it put an end to this situation.

What now?

Enough sentimentality. Let me summarise the current position for you in four simple bullet points:

  • The High Court has ruled that the OFT can assess whether charges are unfair and take action against the banks, but the banks have appealed this decision and we await the appeal hearing. Whether the OFT chooses to take action against the banks remains to be seen.
  • The banks have almost totally closed one of the arguments - that the charges are unlawful penalties under common law. The charges could still be unlawful penalties under totally different law: the UTCCR.
  • The FSA waiver remains in place, meaning people can’t at the moment reclaim charges but the banks can continue to charge them. Wealthier people continue to pay nothing for their current accounts.
  • Only when all this is over will we know whether we can reclaim charges, and whether the banks will continue to charge us or scrap free banking.

> In Bank Charges Ruling Not Straightforward, you can read more about:

  • What to do now if you’ve had previous charges.
  • The previous judgment.
  • The possible future outcomes for claimants after the appeal case.

> Compare current accounts. You might not find a nicer bank than your current one, but you’ll likely find a better deal.

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Comments

The opinions expressed here are those of the individual writers and are not representative of The Motley Fool. If you spot any comments that are unsuitable hit the flag to alert our moderators.

TMFLaura 10 Oct 2008, 5:32pm

"My moral view is this totally stinks; I'd happily pay a modest monthly fee with the rest of the country if it put an end to this situation."

What a softie you are Neil! For the record, I concur.

And thanks for the update :)

LastChip 10 Oct 2008, 5:43pm

The problem is, "a modest monthly fee" can rapidly become horrendous - especially in this banking climate.

Personally, any hint of a fee and I'll switch accounts continually, until I'm out of options.

When a bank is holding considerable cash deposits from investors, the banks should be well able to cover transaction costs, particularly now it's practically 100% automated.

Since the advent of Internet banking, I doubt I visit a branch more than once a year. Effectively, through Internet banking, I do their work for them. Fees? No chance!

It seems to me (in a manner of speaking) you are suggesting I should pay for individuals that fail to control their finances adequately. Well, as selfish as it may appear, no way!

Whereas, I would consider that I've been prudent over the years, many of these people you have sited have not; preferring holidays, plasma TV's 4x4's and all the other trappings of modern society. That's their choice and while I chose not to go down that route, they did. Much of the debt and overdrawn situation is self inflicted. Don't expect me to pick up the tab.

Terrapin1 10 Oct 2008, 6:23pm

No one asked the banks to buy opulent buildings.
No one asked the bank-why don't I get a fair return on my money-is it because the BBA has ensured that banking is a cartel? This is plainly the case as there is no competition in reality.
No one asked the banks to destroy our economy.
FSA is the lapdog of the city, paid for by the city- a pointless farce.
Banking is 30 years overdue for a rethink, and a dose of humility wouldn't go amiss.
They get their product delivered to them for free, after all.(Our money)

Dhahran2001 11 Oct 2008, 8:08am

Wealthier people continue to pay nothing for their current accounts.

If wealthier people have their money in the banks which levy 'disputed' charges - the banks benefit for the reason given by 'LastChip', they earn interest on the deposited money.

Many people who are 'wealthier' have reached that position because they are 'prudent', and some people who are 'poor' have been 'imprudent'. But of course a journalistic 'crusade' in favour of 'the poor' will always prevail over one in favour of 'the rich'.

Gonflage 11 Oct 2008, 8:13am

Good morning to all Fools.

re: "...Just the facts, ma’am...."


Amidst all the gloom and doom, I hope it will not be considered too far off-topic or flippant to observe that Mr Faulkner does not appear to be quite old enough to be quoting from Dragnet (the late Mr Jack Webb) or does clean-living financial journalism keep one young.

I will be interested to hear comments from any fellow-Fools, old enough to know what I am talking about.

Keep on Foolin'

mikefour 11 Oct 2008, 6:10pm

Same thought occurred to me. But I guess some of these old catch-phrases live on.

mikefour 11 Oct 2008, 6:12pm

I agree wholeheartedly. But I am afraid if it is left to the OFT we're in trouble. What a toothless tiger!

mancman 13 Oct 2008, 6:48am

You state in the above article that "The whole 'free banking' system relies on wealthier people paying nothing, or almost nothing, for their current accounts."

So if I am careful with my money and dont go overdrawn so as to ensure that I dont pay any charges does that mean I'm wealthy?

I learnt my lesson many years ago that if you borrow money, use credit cards and go overdrawn it ends up costing a lot more than just money. Now as a result I live within my means and if I haven't got the money then I dont have it. I don't live a wealthy extravagant lifestyle and I haven't had a proper holiday for the last couple of years but then I dont owe any money.

What you have to remember is that the banks get the benefit of my money until I draw it out and it is lending that money that in my mind means we can have free banking. All the bank charges do is pay for the exclusive trips abroad and the bonuses and dividends.

BTW for the record I am not and never have been a bankrupt or entered into any kind of arrangement to pay my debts such as an IVA or DMP plan. As I say I learnt as a youngster that if you borrow you have to pay it back and it always costs more.

Fran79 13 Oct 2008, 7:09am

Hi
Thanks for the update Neil.

Just to reply to LastChips comments about monthly fees. I dont know whether you are aware but other countries seem to manage with very tiny monthly / quartely fees and have tiny bank charges in comparison to ours.

For example I am soon to emmigrate to Ireland where bank charges are more in the region of approx £10 or less (depending on the misdemeaner) eg 10Euro for a returned DD, from AIB.
Many banks also now waive the quaterly manitenance fees (which were 4.50Euro) if you perform at least two qualifying transactions a quater - these include using your debit card and making online payments. (Admittedly you have to pay the govt 10Euro / yr to have a debit card but thats a different matter).

So it begs the question if the rest of Europe can manage without the ridiculous high banks charges why do ours apply them - or is it a case that they can get away with it!

Just my opinion of course.

Fran

Hanala1 13 Oct 2008, 7:26am

I am careful with my money, but unlike some I am on a low income, which does not allow for much leeway. I lost everything in the last recession and have struggled every since. I bank with NatWest and have been the victim on many occasions of some of their sharp tricks to extract charges from me.

For example: One Bank Holiday I had a DD due to be paid on the Tuesday but money due to me was paid into my savings account. I had not had any cash to credit my account on the Friday I transferred the relevant amount from the savings account to the Current Account online. The transferred money registered online immediately, and as I knew from previous experience that if I wanted to withdraw cash from an ATM over the weekend I could, I felt safe in the knowledge the DD would be paid.

It was not. The reason? I was told Direct Debits are paid at one minute past midnight, whereas monies paid into an account are credited at 9 a.m of that (working) day. As such, I was overdrawn by 9 hours and incurred a £38 penalty charge. This was more than the amount of the DD so I then fell into the realms of an Unauthorised overdraft, which incurred another penalty of £40 plus interest.

How come I can withdraw the transferred money from an ATM but not leave it in the account to pay for a DD?

Unfair Bank Charges? Too right.

Do I have foreign holidays, flash cars and a plasma TV....uh uh...I wish!

whiteburn 13 Oct 2008, 7:41am

My bank gives me NO interest on my money. i.e. they get to keep all the interest they charge others for the use of my money, in return I get free banking.
Should they wish to make ANY charges then I think that an interest rate of no less than 10% should be payable to me. They set their fees, I set my interest rate, which will increase in line with their fees.
Sounds fair to me.

landlordray 13 Oct 2008, 8:15am

Are they really going to rule against the Banks in the current climate- I think not. The penalty charges were a rip off and not a fair charge for what was involved, but don't expect it to go the Consumers way.

hirsty69 13 Oct 2008, 8:16am

Is there anything we can do to "encourage" the OFT to have more teeth in respect of this issue? An online petition on the No10 website for example?

LateDeveloper 13 Oct 2008, 8:29am

"My moral view is this totally stinks; I'd happily pay a modest monthly fee with the rest of the country if it put an end to this situation."

So you want to go back to the good old days, where you paid a modest charge, and still got hammered with bank charges.

Don't let the term modest charges fool anyone, it won't stop them hammering you with other charges.

ap073 13 Oct 2008, 8:30am

The poor do not subsidise the rich.
The stupid, greedy and impatient subsidise the Foolish.
It is society's punishment for being stupid, greedy and impatient, and in time, most of these people learn their lessons and become more Foolish.
It does worry me a little when I see a communist writing for a website like this!

doomanic 13 Oct 2008, 8:33am

Lastchip, I'm glad you're alright, jack.
Not everyone who gets bank charges is a reckless spender. Thanks to the manufacturing slowdown, my base wages have dropped 33%, and that's before I take into account the loss of overtime as we are currently on a ban. I haven't had any charges, yet, but for how much longer?
Incidently, I pay £15pcm for my account but get less than 1% interest pa on any credit balance but pay nearly 1% pcm on my overdraft.
Fair? I don't think so.

potblack 13 Oct 2008, 8:42am

We have an opportunity from this week to recover from recent Bank dictatorship. Whatever the dowside of nationalisation (and there is much!),your lobbying your MP before the next elction should now include your wishes on the way your Bank is run. Why not demand a giro system for instance? This has many advantages such as no overdraft facility so no cahrges. Why not insist your Bank is banned from offering 'financial services' which we cannot afford? Lets go back to the time when the Bank and its Manager (yes there used to be a manager in each Branch) provided a service for you rather than seeking to exploit your ignorance for profit? It's only in the past twenty years that this misery has been imposed on us. If we don't change things we will have to go through it all again! Long live democracy! Down with Bank dictatorship!

yocoxy 13 Oct 2008, 9:04am

You go overdrawn, you get charged. You can argue that the charges are too high, or you can bank elsewhere, or avoid going overdrawn.

If you stay with the same bank, continue to go overdrawn and continue to see charges on your statement without any change in behaviour, who exactly is to blame?

More importantly if this odd behaviour racks up thousands of pounds of charges and at some later stage you demand it be refunded, who will pay..? Yep, it's either the other customers of that bank subsidising your incompetence, or in today's climate the tax payer will help out to alleviate the burden of either you or the bank taking responsibility.

Ridiculous. Refund the first £25 and tell the rest of them to take this is as a lesson in personal responsibility (not to mention a dose of reality)

al79 13 Oct 2008, 9:36am

Why should anyone pay anything for returned DD's? What manual labour is involved? As far as i'm concerned here's what currently happens:
1)Computer from Acme corp asks for £20 for their services.
2)Computer from the bank recognises funds arn't available to cover the amount.
3)Computer refuses to pay £20 to Acme corp.
4)Computer has been programmed to deduct in the region of £32 from the bank account immediately.
5)Computer recognises the bank account has gone over the overdraft / into a negative amount if no overdraft is in place and charges a further amount in the region of £35. Normally applied at the end of the month.
6)Computer tells printer to print off a letter advising what has happened, and if they don't put funds in the account to remedy the situation within 3 days a further £25 will be deducted, and every 3 days after that the same will happen.
7)A bank employee likely to be on no more than £15 000 per annum puts letter in envelope. Letter is of course sent 2nd class so the account holder doesn't receive it until the 3rd day.
8)Their boss receives bonus and a pat on the back.
9)Account holder gets home from work at 4pm. Runs to the bank to put funds in like a fool, yet gets told they are too late(?) as you have to put funds in before 3pm for the account to recognise it's in that same day.


With regards to cheques, I can see there is some admin involved. However, the costs are disproportionate. And that is the major point of the bank charges case.

The argument of incompetance of the customer to manage their finances better is made by people who are shareholders or wannabe shareholders which is just as bad. The people who get charged are low earners. They cannot be penalised for not earning enough. It isn't the 'other' customers pockets the refunded charges come out of. The fact is they shouldn't of been charged anything in the first place. This is how bonuses are paid. FACT.

The teller in a bank is on a low income. I bet my mortgage that when they go unauthorised overdrawn they refund themselves. Or they get a mate to do it for them.

JforJenny 13 Oct 2008, 9:40am

Soon we'll all be shareholders in the major banks if the Government's plan to nationalise the banking system go ahead. After all, it's the taxpayer's money they're using to subsidise the banks, just like it's the taxpayer's money the banks are helping themselves to with these charges.

Does that mean we'll now have a say in how the banking system is run? What powers will the 'common man' have in all this?

potblack 13 Oct 2008, 9:50am

JforJenny. My note above answers your question.

Patsy09 13 Oct 2008, 10:11am

I don't agree with any kind of monthly charge. I am not wealthy, I have never paid any bank charges and do not agree in subsiding those that cannot manage their affairs. The charges are a penalty whereby those that incur them should learn by their mistakes.

AdAstra100 13 Oct 2008, 10:32am

So the Fool still continues to sanction that it was OK for the feckless to ignore their obligations, not I stress the poor - who do have avenues of appeal, and that it a contributory factor to the problems we are now having. The colour of the article is also exposed by the fact that the Fool still refers to a potential breach of the UTCCR as unlawful when it can only really be classified as unfair. Life in unfair and caveat emptor is a serious maxim that everyone should be obliged to get in their heads, even those who took the Fool's best buy advice to get into Iceland!

Regards

AdAstra

TheImp 13 Oct 2008, 10:36am

What about customers being charged for banks incompetence! My husband recently changed jobs and informed his bank that his pay date would be changing and he would need to change all his standing orders and direct debits. Some numpty in a call centre assured my husband that the bank would sort all this out for him and make all the neccessary calls and adjustments. Needless to say they didn't keep up their end of the bargin, paid everything out on the old dates, sent him into unauthorised overdraft and charged him £300 for the pleasure. He is now trying to get these charges back, the bank say they have no record of the call (luckily our phone provider does) and says that it is not bank policy to manage customers standing orders and direct debit dates. Perhaps somebody should tell their employees that!

brandonspeed 13 Oct 2008, 10:42am

We have still yet to see a comprehensive break down of the costs involved for banks to process a default transaction. What annoys me is that banks in Ireland are charging 3 Euros, some banks in the UK charge £8 and some £16, and then some charge £35.

It is painfully clear that some banks (ie the ones charging £28-£35) are blatantly overcharging their customers. In light of the costs involved, why will they (STILL) not reveal their price structures for these 'services'? Why is it cheaper for Irish banks, cheaper for some UK banks, yet extortionate for some UK banks? Surely this points towards introducing legislation for 'capping' these services, albeit they are made lawful, but within limits ie. £8.
Brandon

dneale123 13 Oct 2008, 11:01am

"My moral view is this totally stinks; I'd happily pay a modest monthly fee with the rest of the country if it put an end to this situation."

I do wonder how the big banks can really claim to need to charge us for going about our daily business - either for making transactions or for the privilege of having one of their current accounts - when they typically pay us such a pittance in interest (generally 0.1%) on credit balances and demand punitive overdraft rates. Surely these alone make it well worth their while having our business?

I can understand the banks charging at cost for exceptional transactions such as returned cheques, but anything further than this, given the interest they make on our money, strikes me as sheer greed!

TMFLaura 13 Oct 2008, 11:01am

One thing I'd like to raise is the issue of proportionality.

Regardless of whether or not you believe someone who is 'irresponsible' with their money should accept a bank charge, surely it's impossible to justify the amounts being levied by banks?

As I commented on a previous thread some months ago, I was once charged £48 for going £4 overdrawn with the Halifax. £48?! £4?! Ridiculous.

I don't believe there is any way in the world it costs banks sums like these to return direct debits, or send standard template letters to their customers.

Thus, in my view, whether or not the charges are in theory justifed, in practice they are unfair.

Bartron 13 Oct 2008, 11:09am

It really shocks me that there are so many people out there who hold this stereotype view that people in debt are so because of their extravagant spending. It is much harder for people who are on low wages to manage their money, and of course they are probably on low wages because they don't have the capacity to earn more. So we have the least capable people trying to manage the most difficult situations. Now I am one of those people who manage their money well; didn't know what an overdraft was until I was in my 30's. But I see people that really struggle and can tell you that not only do the banks not try to help them, they actively seek to get as much money out of them as possible. The majority of bank staff appear to be sales people, out to sell you products rather than offer you a service. Now some people may disagree with my perspective but I would ask them to look at the current financial crisis and ask themselves what contribution the banks behaviour as I have described may have made to the crisis.

laalaa41 13 Oct 2008, 11:15am

The poor have avenues to appeal? - dont make me laugh!

The Direct Debit Guarantee doesnt protect you from companies who take too much, too early, even those you havent even a contract WITH. Oh you might get payments back - months later; only if you jump through various hoops first. In the meantime, your bank has bounced every payment you have and taken half your salary out of your account! Oh and previously excellent credit rating is now sunk out of sight. So having no money in one's purse, you can't even get a credit card any more. So having conducted my account for 6 years "empeccably" the manager says - counts for NOTHING.

I've been fighting this since January and NO-ONE, not even the FSA are interested. If I could afford a good lawyer..... As our man says here, if I was stinking rich - the bank manager might have either given me the courtesy of telling me on the golf course, over a nice vintage port but NO charges would have been applied.

BTW - Im not poor/stupid, I have a good job and qualifications for it - white collar, west end grandmother of good standing. So its ARBITRARY.

chrisk007 13 Oct 2008, 11:34am

I can never understand the rationale for monthly charges on bank accounts. I've always understood that banks borrow money from those who have it at a lower rate and lend it to those who require more at a higher rate, their profit being the difference between the two rates.

And why should I pay them to "look after" my money? They should be paying me for the privilege! If I were to put £100 into an account and then go round the world for a year, I would expect to come back to more than £100, not a letter saying that, because of monthly charges, I am now overdrawn and owe the bank a lot of money!

Varstar 13 Oct 2008, 12:14pm

@ AL79,

The letters are put into envelopes by a machine... no humans needed. And a lot of them are sent MailSort3, which is even slower/cheaper than 2nd class post... it can take a 7-10 days...

seanomercy 13 Oct 2008, 12:46pm

Hi Fools.
We as TAX payers are now bailing the Banks out, because they have been frivolous with our money, and they expect us to look after our money better, Ha Ha Ha Ha. What a joke. What about our charges to them for wasting our money? They are now taking money away from Schools, Hospitals, and other important services because they couldn't look after our money, but they got their nice big fat juicy bonuses. Whilst laughing at the rest of the poor getting poorer. Damned right we should claim charges back. Eye for an eye. They can punnish us with charges, then have the ordacity to get tehm to bail them out. What a F*"**!! joke.

seanomercy 13 Oct 2008, 12:49pm

that was meant to say, get us to bail them out

onetrackminds 13 Oct 2008, 12:55pm

Question. Does a overdrawn charge constitute a standard charge and if so, then why are we not given 14 days notice before the money is taken (in accordance with the banking codes advice on charges)? Secondly, like Hanala1 I have been charged money when the funds should have been available. Indeed when visiting my local branch none of the account clarks or indeed a personal banker could see why I was being charged as I appeared to be within my overdraft. It took several phonecalls by the personal banker to ascertain that the balance that I was shown as 'current cleared funds' was in actual fact different to the balance that the banks head office could 'see' and upon which they issued charges. Why do they not show the customer the true figures? I guess there's no profit in being honest. I'm wondering if I can bring a criminal case against them for Obtaining money by deception under the Fraud Act of 2006. I can prove the descrepency but don't know how the 'Honesty' Test would be applied to a bank. Any Solicitors/Lawyers/Barristers with any ideas?

heva51 13 Oct 2008, 1:11pm

hi all
i would just like to add this
1/ it is almost impossible to live in this country WITHOUT a bank account due to the amount of bills that can only be paid this way , or incoming money even from the "benefits"offices, so you are in a place outside your control.
2/if you are on a low income you will probably not be able to keep sufficient funds in your account to cover the times when as Hanala1 says ,DDs are taken at times when funds are due in , but miss each other by hours.
3/ there are many people on low incomes that have been made much poorer by the unfairness and extremely high charges of many banks.

if your income[not considering the hidden benefits such as housing benefit] is about £120pw [the income of my daughter , at college , single parent one child at school] and in any month you get slapped for even one "misdemeanor" you may well incur charges equal to half of your next weeks money.so you dont buy any food [come to your mums for dinner!]you dont put on your heating , no money for the key meter[fuel charges at a higher rate than those who have money to spare]
and you certainly cant have any thing other than a "hand to mouth "existence.
my daughter has been caught several times , and when she talked to the bank about this , was offered a loan of several hundreds of pounds . Crazy!
i wouldnt want anyone to pay more to cover my daughters financial problems , but the banks have made , and will continue to make a fortune out of the misfortune of poverty.

wheypat 13 Oct 2008, 1:20pm

I personally view those that abuse the banking system by going over drawn as thieves and think that they should be procescuted as such. What is the difference between writing a cheque when you know there is insufficient money in your account and walking into Tesco, loading a trolley, walking out of the door - it's alright isn't it? I'll come back next month and pay for the goods . . .

So now I will probably loose free banking and some people that stole money (IMHO) off a bank will get repaid by me! How is that fair?

laalaa41 13 Oct 2008, 1:21pm

See, there are thousands (millions?) of people who DO handle their accounts properly until institutions move the goalposts, fudge the facts, etc just so banks etc can bump up their profit margin. Energy companies and banks both are announcing stupendous profits and we are freezing, starving and the bailiff's are after your second hand telly.

No-one's said it yet but you can't tell me that the people claiming back their charges/suing for mis-selling PPI etc hasnt hit the banks hard. So they've been caught acting badly and not even having to pay the price! In industry, you screw up - you find yourself in the car park with a cardboard box. Wish someone gave me a million squid for messing up!

Also I thought poorer people were charged huge APRs because there was an element of risk involved for the lender. I presumed (naively) that part of that charge might have gone on insuring their risk? Are they NOT insured? If not why not?

It's REALLY wrong that poor people are being forced to pay again for these so-called professionals wrong-doing. Look.... if old ladies refuse to pay their council tax - they get put in jail!

laalaa41 13 Oct 2008, 1:50pm

Someone said - it's like you walk into Friscos and before you're allowed to shop, you give your purse to an assistant for safe-keeping.

When you get back with your week's shopping, the assistant cheerfully tells you the butcher the baker and the candlestick maker who were all due to be paid next week had taken the money out of your purse early, leaving you with nothing and the assistant just let them!

He lets you take your shopping only because you promise to come back in the morning to pay - but then he charges you double for the shopping and next time you go to Friscos, you have to pay £10 to shop there. I don't think so.

ukdaytona 13 Oct 2008, 2:21pm

I have no issue paying reasonable bank charges, but I currently bank with A&L and last year found this report on the BBC News websight

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6588477.stm

Quote
'The Alliance & Leicester appears to have acknowledged that a fee of only £4.50 might be a fair charge for bouncing cheques.

The bank has put this charge forward to settle a customer's claim for the refund of £2,035 in overdraft fees.

The letter to the customer, who wishes to remain anonymous, quotes research for a recent BBC Money Programme as the basis of its offer.

The bank's standard charge for bouncing a cheque is currently £25. '

If my maths are right then the bank is making a 500%+ mark up on its charges and yet those going overdrawn are classed as criminals ????

FoolSte 13 Oct 2008, 2:25pm

A while ago I was invited to my bank's local branch for a 'financial review', as they called it.

They recommended a list of services / products etc to me stating how great they were and how they would 'help' me. As I am fairly proficient with numbers, I sat and worked through their figures in front of them, open book.

Firstly, they were amazed that I could actually count and understood 'APR' (even though I have an 'A' Level in maths and a good Engineering Degree), and secondly were even more amazed when I rejected every single option they proposed as they would all cost me more money. Thirdly, I came up with an option that actually saved me money, much to their disappointment.

They are, and have always been, only out for themselves. Take, take, take.....

Delta112 13 Oct 2008, 2:35pm

I agree with TMFLaura about why one should get slapped with an excessive charge of £48 for a £4 overdraft for one day, or whatever it was! Also agree with a couple of laalaa41's posts.

agree that a certain nominal charge should be made for bounced cheques and customers SHOULD calculate whether they have enough money for cheques, but mis-calculations occur especially with DDs. For those who say they have 'never been overdrawn', bully for them - but it is easier to go down this spiral than one thinks!

I had a standing order transaction listed last month on my on-line statement, but I don't remember having ever authorised this standing order and the first thing I said to the telephone banking clerk is that this is a 'mistake' and should never have been there. Did I get a refund of the £25 review charge - no! They said it was not an error on the part of the . But they should have used a degree of common sense and recognised it wasn't the customer's error either.

Trouble is that the major banks' computers are now programmed to take a charge for the most minor 'misdemeanor', often stright away, and ask questions (or, more like, refuse to discuss the queries) later!

Delta112 13 Oct 2008, 2:42pm

After I put "on the part of the" I put "name of the bank" in chevrons but this text was deleted. Prefer not to disclose the name of the bank at the moment.

If Irish banks can charge about 5 to 8 Euros, why are the UK bank charges so expensive? (rhetorical question)

From Neil Faulner's article there seems to be a question mark on whether the OFT are on our side. this is really scary! The OFT should, if there is conflict, support the humble consumer! IMHO the OFT have not really done us any favours, especially with the FSA waiver preventing customers' claims from being processed until the actual conclusion of the case.

Delta112 13 Oct 2008, 3:06pm

Wheypat: which planet are you on? Not everyone is actually aware that they would be going overdrwn from a bounced cheque. Sometimes I have had cheques gone through months after they were written - although on this occasion there did happen to be enough money in my account.

I can sympathise with this afternoon's post from FoolSte. With a recent 'financial review' myself, I thought the bank had called me in for a genuine attempt to manage my day-to-day finances, after some recent bank charges, but they mainly tried to sell insurance or other policies. Although the bank clerk did try to get me an overdraft facility, but the bank's internal computer did not 'authorise' this.

David1957160 13 Oct 2008, 5:45pm

I am in the happy position of lending money to the banks; rather than borrowing from them.

I agree that the banks should charge a monthly fee on accounts, indeed mine does. I, however, think that the banks should pay a decent rate of interest on current accounts that remain in credit.

Thus the banks would charge bank charges for services provided, and charge/give interest on balances. This seems to me the fairest way of doing it.

Where people cannot move their account (eg. large overdraft) the banks should not be allowed to increase charges/interest rates disproportionally. This will protect such people from sudden large increases, which they cannot avoid.

25billa52 13 Oct 2008, 7:00pm

Hi there!

@A & L, they charge as follows:

Only £5/m for underfunding.

ONLY £5/day for unauthorised o/draft, @ a max of only 20 days/m, a great improvement over £35/m?

All this without any warning of o/draft, and all despite a healthy 4 digit current, and an equally healthy 6 digit savings/deposit a/c!

Their all new “over 50’s” a/c is free to those who can afford the top 8.5% “earnings”, but is costing the less fortunate £10/m!!!

Or is this simply a standard underfunding charge???
I am attempting to vote with my feet, all the way to S. America, there are far less bandits/extortionists out there.

Also t-mobile really enjoy charging £20/m for broad-band + 8.5p/text, despite which they cut my connection every few minutes, oft as long as two hours, oft losing any unsaved/unposted work.

Do they not like my money???

TheGinger1 13 Oct 2008, 10:00pm

Here's a simple thought for all the moaners out there. Monitor your account. You are all arguing for cheaper charges for bounced cheques and unpaid direct debits. What a wonderful idea. Make it so cheap that when you don't have enough money in your account, it will only cost you a couple of quid to not bother honouring your financial commitment when you write a cheque or have insufficient funds to pay your Direct Debit!!

PAULB2301 13 Oct 2008, 10:02pm

in todays financial times where we earn less as wages rises are less than the inflation and food bills and energy prices just keep going up and up you think the goverment would finally pass us an olive branch and allow us to finally claim back what we feel we are entitled too. but i feel as they now own a percentage of a few of the main banking sectors that they will step in and not allow the OFT to ge the job done, shame as a tax payer we now own a percentage as well so really we are claiming from ourselves.

theser institutes have been legally for years been allowed to rob the poor and give top the rich, it seem s that if everyone actually took there money and hid it under there mattress then they would have one very big headache on your shoulders but as we dont have a choice as everything has to be pay in and out of bank accounts nowadays the chances of this are going to be small.

how about they finally give the low payed a break and just give in, would it not nake us feel more strongly for the banks if they did this it would show that they actually care about the customers more than the profits that they make for the fatcats at the top.

Overload2004 13 Oct 2008, 10:09pm

I love it!!!!! Reading everyone spouting on about how hard done to they are!, Its not me! thats unfair! reading through MOST of the replies not all! Its amazing how many people claim to know how the banking systems work! providing times for clearance (that are wrong!) claiming non-manual work involved (of course, you all work for a bank so you know how it works!)

Most of you should be embarrassed not bragging! It just proves the reason banks need to charge, So everyone isn't paying for others recklessness with their bank balance.

For example your DD (Promises to Pay) should be your priorities, and money should be where you stated it should be, when you agreed it would be!

or Cheques, If you write a cheque the money is promised to someone as soon as you write it and exchange it for the goods or service. If they don't cash it straight away, its still not your money to spend as you have promised it away! Those are the rules and if you can't follow them don't have a cheque book!

I also don't believe that banking is only free for the wealthy and costly for the poor. As a child you can learn from unpleasant experiences (My younger sister burnt her fingers on her 3rd birthday because she wanted to touch her candles, Unpleasant, she never did that again) taking away whether bank charges are penalties or not, no-one will argue they are not unpleasant! But why don't some people apply the same principles as my sister? Societies biggest problem is the BLAME CULTURE! its always someone else's fault!

I've sat on both sides of this fence. In my younger more irresponsible days I got bank charges, I knew honestly when it was my fault and should have done something to prevent it. I was also subject to human error by bank staff, (which is a side effect to being able to deal with a human being) and incurred bank charges this way as well. I dealt with the human error issues straight away and received those back and didn't have to kick and scream or even really complain. The charges that I knew really I could ha