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We Ain't Seen Nothing Yet

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By

Harvey Jones

From the Fool blog

Local Police Station Is Useless!

Published in Property & Home on 2 October 2008

Nationwide claims we’ve seen the biggest fall in house prices since 1991. But actually, house prices haven't crashed – yet.

We've all seen those Looney Tunes cartoons where Roadrunner, Bugs Bunny or whoever goes charging off the edge of a cliff, then stops, looks down, looks back despairingly, stares at the viewer, defies gravity for a moment, then crashes to earth.

It reminds me the housing market. We've charged recklessly over the edge, stopped, realised what we've done, stared wide-eyed at how far we have to fall, and are now waiting for gravity to do its worst.

But it hasn't yet. If you look at the figures, the panic about falling house prices concerns what is to come, rather than what has happened. Most indices suggest house price falls have so far been surprisingly slight.

Just the facts

Nationally, the average house fell a modest -4.6% in the 12 months to August, according to Land Registry figures. In London, the figure was just -3.2%. In Windsor and Maidenhead, prices actually rose 2.4%. In Hartlepool, they were up 4.8%.

An average drop of -4.6% is a shock after all the years of dramatic growth, but it isn't the end of the world.

If you're in the mood for even more soothing news, Department for Communities and Local Government (CLG) figures show prices falling by just -0.3% in the year to July. The FT house price index puts the annual fall at just -2.2% to August. So what's everybody moaning about?

Well, this for starters. The most dramatic numbers come courtesy of Nationwide, which this week reported 12.4% drop in prices over the past year, leading to headlines like: “Worst Ever House Price Fall Since 1991!” Now that's what I call a housing crash.

Similarly, latest figures from the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors figures show the average house going for 10% below its asking price.

Chin up

But wait a minute. Every time Halifax and Nationwide publish their latest scare 'em to death figures I get an e-mail from property firm Assetz, reminding me that those two lenders base their data solely on their own mortgage transactions, which can be misleading.

Assetz says both lenders "have significantly raised their mortgage rates recently to boost their profits while transactions fall, which has resulted in purchasers haggling down property prices by a few per cent to compensate for their increased costs."

It claims this is why Halifax and Nationwide figures are notably more dramatic than other indices, such as the FT and CLG, which use Land Registry data, or Rightmove, which looks at asking prices (and recorded a modest -3.3% fall in the 12 months to September).

Assetz claims Rightmove figures can also be misleading, because there is evidence of sellers putting up asking prices, in anticipation of later negotiation by the purchaser.

Property company Assetz clearly has an axe to grind, but it does offer a more sober reading of the figures than most newspaper headlines.

The problem I – and I suspect many buyers and sellers – have is that I don't feel I can rely on any of these figures. Things feel much worse.

My friend Ben

So what about the anecdotal evidence? I think of my friend Ben, who recently sold his house three-bedroom terrace in Hither Green, south-east London. It went on the market for £435,000 last November. In May, after months of fear, loathing and gazundering, he pocketed £375,000, 13.8% below the original asking price. I don't think he's complaining about that now (it was overvalued anyway, sorry Ben).

Housebuilder Barratt is reported to be slashing 43% off the price of some new homes although only for people buying five properties or more in its Yorkshire East division.

Plus there are plenty of reports of new-build city centre flats being auctioned off for 40% or 50% below their original asking price, as buy-to-let investors abandon the market on fears of oversupply.

And then there is the frankly astonishing news that the value of mortgages fell 95% between July and August, from £2.99 billion to a threadbare £143 million.

Deep freeze

This final figure confirms to me that rather than falling, the property market is frozen. Buyers ain't buying, sellers ain't selling – unless they really have to (like housebuilders, or buy-to-let investors who jumped on the bandwagon too late and got their sums wrong).

Plenty of people still predict prices will fall 30% from their peak, and I suspect they might be right. When I trawl through property websites, I see humdrum houses for sale at unsustainably high prices, and can't imagine anyone paying those prices now.

The odds are still that we are heading for a serious correction, but I'll repeat, it hasn't happened yet.

We are all stuck in mid-air, like comedy cartoon figures, waiting for gravity to do its worst.

More: I Want A House Price Crash!

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Comments

The opinions expressed here are those of the individual writers and are not representative of The Motley Fool. If you spot any comments that are unsuitable hit the flag to alert our moderators.

supasap 02 Oct 2008, 12:02pm

So if buyers aren't buying and sellers aren't selling then where are the would be first time buyers living.... not sure newly weds will stop at their in laws for long,,, not sure that divorced and separared couples will co habit because they can't get a mortgage..... I still don't understand the dynamics of the housing market and the more I read the less certain I am of other experts.....

CunningCliff 02 Oct 2008, 12:11pm

Hi Harvey,

You can just imagine the sale boards at Barratt Homes:

CLOSING DOWN SALE -- HALF-PRICE HOUSES!

Cliff ;0)

LastChip 02 Oct 2008, 1:01pm

You know, nobody ever considers the house owner.

Essentially, we are a nation of home owner/lovers, many of whom will take the view; OK, the value of my property has dropped, so I'll stay put.

Just like people tend to hang onto shares when they are falling (rather than sell), most will also hang onto their properties and simply wait for them to rise again.

How long that will take is anyones guess.

Further, as each day passes, we get closer to a General Election. Nobody in their right minds would say the government is totally to blame, but don't underestimate the efforts the present shower will go to, to reinstill the "feel good" factor. An essential element to ensure the present bums on seats remain in place. (though hopefully, that will fail anyway).

Coming up to a year ago, I commented on David Kuo's prediction that house prices would drop 30%. My estimate was around 10-12% this year. I'm pleased to say, thus far and just for once, that looks about right. I'll go further and predict that next year, there will be a further drop, but that is likely to be contained to single figures, perhaps a further 8% tops. Why do I say this? Well is all predicted on the assumptions in my second paragraph. People are simply not going to roll over and die. They'll stay put, and that means when we're out of this mortgage mess, they'll be a shortage of supply.

I should learn to grow some wings. You may be hovering a lot longer than you think.

joewaldron 02 Oct 2008, 1:17pm

At last, a sensible article on house prices. The only people selling at the moment are the desperate ones, so they will drop their price. The only people buying are those in a good bargaining position, so they will haggle down. This, allied with the huge number of city centre new builds selling at a huge discount, is distorting the figures.

SelfDoIt 02 Oct 2008, 2:06pm

I've been watching the market closely and reading everything I can and I agree with the author; I think that we are just seeing the start of the fall in house prices. I think falls will accelerate and fall even faster over the next 12 months. They will level off after that, but I predict a Japanese-style stagnation for a long time where people will be trapped in the houses they bought late in the boom for years and years as they work their way out of negative equity.

MonsterMixer 02 Oct 2008, 3:21pm

"And then there is the frankly astonishing news that the value of mortgages fell 95% between July and August, from £2.99 billion to a threadbare £143 million."

Could I please point out that this figure actually refers to the value of net mortgage lending - this is the total value of new mortgages taken minus the total value of all mortgage repayments.

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/statistics/li/current/index.htm

dhorsley 02 Oct 2008, 3:30pm

Well the semi four doors up from me was sold recently. It was on the market for less than a week, no board went up. Made well over the asking price (about 20% over if it went for what I think it went for, but I am in Scotland so that is normal). So no sign of a housing crash here. Anecdotaly from colleagues prices here in Aberdeen are stable or falling slightly, and selling is getting a bit harder but not impossibly so.

bobfruit 02 Oct 2008, 6:16pm

I think there's another band of sellers which is often overlooked - those who did well in the past few years, got a bit of equity together and want to realise that money before prices take too much of a dip. I would suggest it's those people who are also selling now. For whatever reason, they want to try and extract that equity now rather than when the market eventually picks up - even if it means going back into rented accommodation.

With regard to "experts", no-one really knows what will happen and the herd nature of investors makes their decisions and reactions even harder to predict. I always take the view that "expert opinion" is akin to a good novel on a long journey (and we're on one!). Interesting, believable, but not necessarily true.

northcase 02 Oct 2008, 7:32pm

1.should all estate agents be shot? they and the banks/building societies and government policy are all at fault. In talking up the price of property over the years for their vested interest larger commissions no regard has been placed on valid ethical sustainable affordability,suprise suprise no one can afford the income multiplication.
2. The Lenders have given money away like sweets and not had the assets to cover this profit and greed based lending, what accountants do they employ?
3. Browns good idea stamp duty increases has managed to bring to a halt the ability to move at a reasonable cost, most people I speak to find this a serious burden.
Are they suprised at the result?
THE GOOD NEWS - market readjustment of price, down initially which is not bad news in the long term will allow the cycle to begin again the first time buyers is the first push of the wheel. Property cannot exchange without this part of the market being buoyant with sensible affordability to encourage home ownership.
The very people who are whining about falling property prices are the same people who buy £20000 - £35000 cars ( a large part of the market) that lose £5000 to £9000 per annum and accept this as normal, they do not expect their cars to go up in value each year. Property at times has a cost, but you have to live somewhere. If you have to sell at a loss (cost) accept this and get on with the next thing. Or remain where you are (no loss) and wait for more favourable conditions. Have we not been through this before?
A return to prudent and sensible lending policy will benefit all in the long term, write/contact your MP to encourage help for first time buyers and the overhaul of financial stewardship reulations. A little Christian common sense wouldn`t do any harm either.

heatonfan 02 Oct 2008, 9:04pm

Yes, the article is right, though hardly rocket science.

One does not need to be an expert to analyse the property market in the context of the wider economy for the next 5 years at least:

a. Buyers are naturally reluctant to reduce their perceived "value" of their property. Purchasers now want big reductions. Hence the present "stand off" where there are modest drops on the few properties sold before the big fall.

b. The bubble in houseprices was caused by easy credit, combined with the assumption that housing was a one-way bet.

c. Some people think they can wait, but old age, divorce and job moves cannot wait for long. And as soon as a property sells for these reasons, they set the price for the locality.

d. Just as market sentiment drives prices up, it drives prices down just as powerfully. We will really see substantial price drops when increasing numbers of foresighted vendors suddenly realise this is not a blip and they should get rid of their property as soon as possible for a reasonable price before things get even worse.

Unfortunately, there are "no wings" to be grown to halt the fall as one overoptimistic poster suggested above. The banks have been badly burnt and between the need to restore capital and to satisfy increased regulation they are going to be very careful who they lend to and how much. Major players have been effectively taken out of the market. This and the decline of BTL will have major structural effects on the housing market. No-one should kid themselves otherwise.

eftpotrm 03 Oct 2008, 8:27am

I do wish people would remember that the average householder is better off with _lower_, not higher prices. High prices help investors, those trading down / liquidating assets and those who borrowed too much - so unless you've got a BLT portfolio, a recently dead relative or are looking to move somewhere smaller now the children have left, or made a poor borrowing decision, we are _better_ off with the falling market. We can buy that larger house in a better area for less cash difference.

reason8 03 Oct 2008, 9:09am

Reality check!

Buying or selling a house is a bit like buying or selling a share only in the sense that an individual share price has not necessarily followed the FTSE index or whatever other index you care to look at. And most of the headlines are based on index movements which do not necessarily reflect your individual reality.

Mortgages have not dried up, there are still a number of lenders not exposed to the so called toxic debt. They have usually adopted sensible lending policies and continue to do so. The only difference for first time buyers or sub prime borrowers is that the mortgages which have become toxic are no longer available and should never have been made available.

At the first time buyer end of the market the toxic lending pushed up prices and those prices are quickly coming back to levels that make them more affordable for both buy to live and buy to let.

Those who cannot afford buy to live will rent at local market rental prices which are holding up well and which are underpinned by local housing allowance levels. There are now many areas where the current reduced prices result in about 10% rental yield and mortgages are available mostly at 75% and sometimes at 85% that will cost much less than the rental. This will help to stop further price reductions.

The other major house price drops have resulted from over confident development leading to oversupply and over inflated prices for property in excess of local demand. This will lead to local market correction which will occurr when rental yields become sensible.

Another factor which underpins house prices is the overall undersupply and the underlying cost of building which inevitably rises with inflation.

Market sentiment will and has slowed down peoples decisions to buy or sell and therefore those that have to sell for all the usual reasons will inevitably have to accept lower prices. Some of these people can use the same market sentiment to buy elsewhere at a discount.

The demand for somewhere to live will not go away, they have not stopped making babies and the UK continues to attract immigrants, also households have fewer people and the divorce rate does not seem to vary hugely, plus more amd more people see the sense in buy to let ie to own more than one property plus we are all living longer and more healthily which reduces property being passed on.

We still have low rates of interst and low unemployment. Property has a historical trendline which is a steady but sure rise of around 11% pa nationally - see office of the deputy prime minister housing statistics since 1964.

Be happy it is better for your health.

Enzyme76 03 Oct 2008, 9:26am

Reality check!

Buying or selling a house is a bit like buying or selling a share


Why is buying your HOME like buying shares?

Some of actualy bought a HOME becuse we wanted to LIVE there!

GET REAL,

tonywjones44 03 Oct 2008, 9:41am

A fall of -4.6% means a rise of 4.6%. Are we sure these are the right people to advise us about our money?

Swarbs 03 Oct 2008, 9:48am

You missed out one key aspect from the Halifax and Nationwide figures - the valuations. Both companies own their own valuation agency, and thus can pretty much tell them what level to value new homes at. With both companies trying to reduce their exposure to potential negative equity, their valuations are now way out of synch with many others. I had a valuation in April this year with Colleys, the Halifax owned valuers, of £265,000. A second opinion with e-Surv came back at £300,000. No prizes for guessing the difference - 13%. Almost exactly how far Halifax and Nationwide say the market has fallen. They're simply valuing properties lower than other companies to reduce the exposure they have from all their sub prime and 100% borrowers.

Oh, and for the record, it's a five bedroom maisonette flat currently let on a 12 month AST for £2,000 a month. So an 8% rental yield even on the higher value. Go on, tell me it's overvalued. What's the dividend yield on your share portfolio Cliff? ;)

Jbat001 03 Oct 2008, 10:04am

Swarbs said:

Oh, and for the record, it's a five bedroom maisonette flat currently let on a 12 month AST for £2,000 a month. So an 8% rental yield even on the higher value. Go on, tell me it's overvalued. What's the dividend yield on your share portfolio Cliff? ;)

Your smugness may turn to horror if your tenant loses his job and can no longer pay the rent. You didn't say how highly mortgaged you were on the property, but regardless of 'tax relief' on BTL mortgage interest, you've still got to pay the lender before you can make a claim under self-assessment.

spannersandbolts 03 Oct 2008, 10:23am

It seems the problem with property at the moment is that owners are pricing there houses at last years prices and buyers are offering what they think will be next years prices.

djohnadams 03 Oct 2008, 10:36am

The figures mentioned will mean something, but not a lot, because appart from the samples in each case comming from a none random sourse they are also not comparing 'like for like' in terms of numbers.

If last year 100 houses were sold at average £150,000, but this year only 10 similar houses were sold at average £135,000. Then it is true to say that the fall in sale price has been 10%.

But it is spurious reasoning to try and use these average figures as a guide to the change in 'value' of an average house ( or to put it another way, 'as a guide to the price that you could expect to sell a similar house for'). I suggest that drop in sales of 90% (in my hyperthetical example above) is far more salient than the drop in average 'sold' price.

My guess is that at the present if you want to have a reasonable certainty of selling a house (as opposed to putting it on the market 'just to see')you need to be prepared to negotiate down anything up to 40% (depending to some extent on type of property and area).

DJA.

dobba2 03 Oct 2008, 11:53am

When referring to land registry figures please can you be aware that these are based on completed sales for that month. An 8 week completion is amazing, a 12 week completion is good, with the difficulties associated with a chain, and problems faced getting mortgages recently 16+ weeks is not unexpected.

At best the August figures were based on offers accepted in May or earlier. A 4.6% drop is therefore more consistant with what Nationwide and Halifax were reporting back in March/April/May.

The problem is that all the house price figures from different sources are collected based on different criteria at different points in the sales chain, making it confusing for the consumer to compare.

If prices have dropped further we will not see this reflected in land registry figures until these sales have completed.

I would add not all estate agents are evil. You get good ones and bad ones, just like you get good people and bad people.

Last summer we viewed a 4 bed detached on at 599,000 (tiny kitchen, tiny bathroom, only 1 loo - work required). We felt it was over valued and offered 552,000. The offer was rejected, but the estate agent advised they would represent it as they felt it was a good offer and reflected the feedback they received from all the other viewers of the property. Given the feedback they felt they had got the valuation wrong. Vendors were NOT impressed and sacked estate agent.

Currently the property is still on the market (15 months after first being listed), they are now with 3rd estate agent and it is being marketed at 525,000.

Sometimes it is not the greed of the Estate Agent, it is the greed of the person selling. An estate agent can only advise, they cannot make a vendor see sense. Yes there are unscrupulous estate agents out there who will encourage this greed - but at the end of the day - they need mugs like you and me to pay inflated prices. If you pay the price, then you are agreeing to their valuation.

And no I haven't moved yet...

bimber 03 Oct 2008, 12:19pm

Swarbs: They're simply valuing properties lower than other companies to reduce the exposure they have from all their sub prime and 100% borrowers.

To reduce exposure to subprime borrowers the lenders can demand 13% deposits. Valuing properties at 13% below their true valuation damages their balance sheet by reducing the value of the mortgages they hold. They'd be mad to do this.

dominicmessenger 03 Oct 2008, 12:29pm

Fazzersix:

If you're looking for the money - it has gone. Disappeared.

Money is no longer backed by any tangible commodity (such as gold).

When an economy grows it creates wealth "out of thin air". When it shrinks, it does the reverse and disappears back into "thin air".

It's actually a good question - and once you realize that money can be created from nothing and return to nothing at the drop of a hat (or a drop in confidence) then a lot of what is happening now makes a lot of sense.

chaz25 03 Oct 2008, 2:52pm

I agree completely, things set far worse a year or two down the line.

Let's look at some of the facts concerning money supply and housing demand.

The effects of high fuel price, even higher energy costs and higher wage demands haven't filtered through yet. This will effect council tax bills, utility bills and tax bills, as well as prices generally.

Water rates are to rise by 60% over the next five years.

Then there's the added cost of borrowing for firms and people alike.

Then the far higher cost of living re food prices, all other prices and transport costs will lead to pressure for wage inflation, which in turn leads to even higher prices. The problem is companies will ANTICIPATE this and put up their prices IN ADVANCE in the present financial crisis.

It is VERY disingenuous of the government to impose drastic actual pay cuts, when people can't meet their present bills, The government is prepared for very serious rioting in the streets over the next few years. When/ If this happens this will hit markets very hard indeed.

All these price hikes and wage cuts amount to a massive amount of reduced 'cash in hand' let alone
borrowed money (even IF available. people are now having to eat drastically into their savings to fund their current accounts.

Re housing directly, at a time of severest financial stringency, how many people are prepared (unless they have to by a job move)to risk very seriously 'burning their fingers' in very deep negative equity.

Put simply, people will wait where they can in the hope that the housing market will bottom out.

By the time this happens we will have seen a FURTHER MULTIFOLD increase in bills, and who knows how limited borrowing may be by then.

I honestly think things might get a LOT worse before things start to improve in housing. a recovery, if there is one may take 5 years or more to begin to happen.

There's also the fact that many people thought the housing market was VERY over-priced. We now have the combination of an extremely severe economic and financial downturn added to a more realistic property valuation market.

But readjustment is the least of the worries. If people can't borrow enough to afford even present prices, houses will not sell. Eventually home owners may have to reduce prices dramatically to sell(but may hold out for 5 years or longer. This might be against a flood of cheaper re-possession properties.

matchmade 04 Oct 2008, 1:13am

The standoff makes perfect sense now that we have a good-sized buy-to-let market which provides a new option for people compared to recessions in the past. Buyers lower down the chain perceive prices to be high and are finding it hard to get mortgages involving new capital, and sellers higher up the chain therefore aren't finding buyers. Sellers are responding by either dropping their price, or holding firm and deciding not to move. Sellers still in the market find they still can't get a buyer at the lower price, so how low are they supposed to go? They think "I could cut my price by 30% or 50% and I still won't find a buyer, and I won't be able to move up the chain myself", so they decide either to stay put, or - as we're seeing - if they need to move for reasons like employment, they look to rent out their house to someone else and rent a smaller place themselves in their new location.

As a result we have a lot of higher-end houses up for rent but not too many takers, as relocation people are scarce and the inadvertant landlords don't want to pay top price themselves - they want to save money in case *their* house doesn't rent. The result is over-supply and falling prices in large rented houses, but under-supply and *upward* pressure on prices for the smaller rented houses that are in demand, as the new entrants are competing with the existing people in the market for rental houses. This is why we hear simultaneously about "falling rents" and "rising rents" in the same part of the country - it depends what type of property you are talking about.

At the same time people are suffering with inflation on food and fuel. Obviously lower interest rates would ease the pressures on homeowners and most BTL landlords, but won't lead to a fall in rents. None of this will however ease the problems in the market, which are all about confidence and highly restricted money markets.

I can see the current situation going on for some time, as banks rebuild their balance sheets and the Americans try to cure their banks# "toxic" sub-prime debt and the contamination of good debt by bad debt in pooled securitised debt.

However this doesn't necessarily mean there'll be a crash rather than a relatively mild house price correction: BTL landlords will hold on - they have low debt-to-value ratios, a good supply of tenants, inflation is steadily reducing the real value of their debt, and interest rates are likely to come down stteply in 2009, easing the pressure on their incomes. Repossession rates on BTL landlords are still much lower than for regular homeowners.

In my experience the thing that will really spark a crash is a rise in interest rates coupled with heavy losses in employment amongst regular homeowners. At the moment, homeowners and BTLers can afford to hang on, but if the economy shows signs of a heavy recession, and we talk ourselves into a recession, and inflation refuses to come down, then we are in trouble. BTL landlords are mostly grown-up investors and will ride out the storm; it's the main economy I'm worried about, and that will include all those first-time buyers who are slathering with anticipation for 30% falls in house prices. They'll see the falls in price, but a good number of them will also be losing their jobs.

Meanwhile I agree with reason8 that in the medium time prices should recover, especially if existing social trends continue and the new-build market continues in its current bombed-out state. Why build a new house in this market? Unless you can get the land cheaply, and planning permission quickly, it makes perfect sense just to stop building or do the minimum needed to keep your key people in work, and wait until the money markets recover and we get through the recession. Meanwhile the houses don't get built, affordable homes aren't built either, and assuming we continue to have an expanding and increasingly single population, eventually demand has to pick up.

steveandlaina 05 Oct 2008, 6:14pm

matchmade, just wanted to say your analysis makes a lot of sense to me rather tha all the scaremongers.

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